on the podcasts

[somedaybitch]

i think most fans miss the point of the podcasts, and the whining is buggin'.

he's treating the fans like professionals in the creative process.

he's letting them in to the conversations that would normally happen in the writer's room, between the paid professionals and the actors and the exec producers and the directors and key grip and the boom guy.

he's treating the fans with the respect they deserve by letting them inside. but most fans are too self-absorbed, and i don't mean that to be insulting, to understand it. all the fans want is what they want, and most don't bother, or refuse to acknowledge, the very real impact that production has on the creative process. but they're also missing the very large point, that any fanfic writer should intimately know, that not every idea is good. sometimes you just have to write the crap because that's the only way you're going to get to the good stuff; your writing partners will tell you it sucks, or it's good but it isn't working, or your actors will come in and say, 'yo, so not what my character would do'. that's the WHOLE POINT OF THE PROCESS, and you're mad about being included in the process.

"but he's an arrogant assssssssssssssss." well, duh. he's a writer. and here's something to think about, would it be better if he was funnier, in your opinion, and more humble, in your opinion? would that make the podcasts groovy and "in the know"? are you pitching a fit because you don't like what he's saying, or because you don't like how he's saying it?

the process is the process, and great stuff gets left behind. sometimes what makes the screen works better as a result and sometimes it doesn't. art isn't perfect because people aren't perfect.

if you can't deal with what Ron says in his podcasts then here's a wacky thought; stop listening. a solid case can be made for too much meta.

but can you stop WHINING ABOUT IT IF YOU CHOOSE TO KEEP LISTENING? that's like stepping out in front of a car and wondering why you got hit. use a crosswalk for frak's sake.

Comments

[adafrog.livejournal.com]

'word'

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of it that way, and you make a good point. Yeah, the creative process does involve a lot of brainstorming, and probably a lot of ideas are considered and then eventually rejected. I think I'll edit my recent post to add a link to this one, because it has a viewpoint I hadn't considered before.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

it was your post that actually sparked this, and not from a negative standpoint but from a positive one. i appreciated that you recognized that the podcasts bugged so you stopped listening, and you recognized needs of story and you got that. so, uhm, thanks, eh.

[raincitygirl.livejournal.com]

Oh. *Rain preens self* Well, uh, carry on then.

Actually, in all honesty, part of the reason the podcasts used to drive me so nuts was me rather than RDM. I was thinking about this in the wake of your post, and it occurred to me that being a classic Type A personality, eldest child, perfectionist, insert psychobabble cliche of choice, the idea of not knowing where something is going terrifies me. Because if I don't have a plan for something, then chances are that something is about to crash and burn in a really spectacularly bad way. Because I do not cope well with uncertainty. At all.

And it occurred to me after you were talking about the artistic process and so forth that RDM has a very different personality from me. He seems to be much more easy-going and laid-back, and "This is a neat idea. Let's see where it takes us." Which is probably a good thing in someone who works in a creative profession. Me, in the unlikely event that I ever ran a TV show, I'd have a detailed 5-year plan, plus contingency plans in case the original 5-year plan didn't work out, and probably contingency plans for the contingency plans. And if something that I hadn't anticipated in advance were to happen, I'd probably be swallowing tranquilizers by the handful as opposed to going with the opportunities offered by the unexpected event. So, you know, probably good that I'm never likely to ever run a TV show.

But yeah, I think some of my "Oh shit, we're all doomed" response that I used to have when I listened to the podcasts and RDM would say stuff like, "I didn't really know where this was going," or "We were going to do X instead, but it didn't work out," are because I really can't imagine NOT knowing where a story arc was going, or casually mentioning an idea I had that we ended up not using because it sucked. I mean, in university I would never dream of letting someone edit an essay until I'd proofread it three million times myself and was positive it didn't really need editing, because there was no way in hell I was showing some sloppy rough draft to ANYBODY.

Which, obviously, is one attitude to life, but probably not one which would best serve someone who is in a creative job, leading a team rather than doing every single thing himself. And possibly not one which serves me very well, but oh well. So yeah, RDM's willingness to talk about mistakes freaks me out and I go into "What if?" mode. "What if they'd actually done that? It would've been terrible! The man's a moron! This show is doomed!" and I have the same Chicken Little response to revelations that he didn't have a plan for something all along. Even if the improvisation ends up working out beatifully, I still think the sky is falling because what if it hadn't? How can I trust him when he didn't know all along what he was doing? He could've screwed up. Which ignores the fact that most of the time, the show is damn good, and morons don't produce good shows just by lucky accident.

So, uh, that ended up being more about me than BSG, but I think there may be a point beyond the navel-gazing. #1, me flipping out over the podcasts is probably more about me than RDM, and #2, there seem to be a lot of Type A personalities in fandom. We are picky, we analyze, we critique, we put a hell of a lot of effort into writing fic, or writing analysis, or making icons. Also, there is a performance art aspect to blogging which probably appeals to people who want to stay in control. Writing, unless you're writing as part of a TV script team, is a solitary activity and the writer decides when to unveil their work for an audience. Maybe there are a lot of people like me freaking out over RDM being less structured and more willing to talk about his dumb ideas, and basically far more willing to roll with the punches.

So, in conclusion, maybe fandom is filled with anxious neurotic people just like me. Because yes, it really is All About Me.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

heh. i'm giggling here. a lot.


Maybe there are a lot of people like me freaking out over RDM being less structured and more willing to talk about his dumb ideas, and basically far more willing to roll with the punches.


well, really, you have to be. that's the environment the art gets created in.

and i have to admit that i have some advantages over fandom, i think, in that #1, i have a writing partner, so i'm used to that process. :::smiles at themonkeycabal:::

#2, i am very laid back, in most things really, but in the creative process specifically. you could call me Sheppard actually, because i could get nutted up about stuff but i'm far too inherently lazy. :::counts self lucky:::,

and #3, i have some film set/creative experience, so i know what the process is like from the other side of the camera, and how every single department on a set can have ENORMOUS influence on the story.


How can I trust him when he didn't know all along what he was doing? He could've screwed up. Which ignores the fact that most of the time, the show is damn good, and morons don't produce good shows just by lucky accident.

an excellent observation that not enough people notice, or appreciate if they do.

[bexxa.livejournal.com]

I like the podcasts (and similar commentaries) for exactly the reasons you mention. I appreciate the insight into the life-cycle of how stories go from idea to execution, and the influences that shape their final form.

I think it's refreshing to hear someone like RDM admit that sometimes the end results fall short of the goal.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

I think it's refreshing to hear someone like RDM admit that sometimes the end results fall short of the goal.

as do i, because it tells me that he gives a frak about the story, and about the craft, and about the larger issues of the show.

[telepresence.livejournal.com]

I also like that he doesn't throw other people under the bus. He's said on more than one occasiona that he's the executive producer and when things go wrong, it's ultimately his fault, that the cast and crew work their asses off and do the best they can with the constraints they're given, and that sometimes he uses his Executive Producer stick to win arguments and sometimes he's just wrong and sometimes he realizes this in time and sometimes he doesn't.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

that takes brass ones, really. it's one thing to have the arrogance required to do that kind of job and another completely to recognize the responsibility that goes hand in hand with the arrogance.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

I find the idea of the podcasts very intriguing because they sort of shift the entire package from story to story creation + story. However, I'm deliberately not listening to them because I don't want the creation to influence my view of the story itself before it's finished. I may listen to them after the season ends though because I do think it's an interesting an innovate use of the technology.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

me too. totally. i listened to some for the first season but haven't listened to any for season two for the same reason. it's so a post-viewing experience for me, primarily because i need the context, but also because i don't want it to influence what i see.

[thassalia.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

[wishkey.livejournal.com]

wurd! Jeez, I love your rants!

"but he's an arrogant assssssssssssssss." well, duh. he's a writer.

Hee!

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

awwww, thanks.

[twister10.livejournal.com]

I agree, for the most part with everything that you've said, but I think you're neglecting one little thing. Most people complain and whine about the podcasts because they worry over where the stories are going. When Ron Moore said during the KLG Podcast that "Originally we were going to have DIRK BENEDICT show up and say HE IS GOD" and there wasn't an ounce of sarcasm to be detected, people freaked the hell out. Thankfully, there are people who work on the show who are not Moore who watch out for and keep this kind of stuff out of the final produciton, but what if there weren't? Moore is the executive producer on this show, it's his baby, it's ultimately his show- and he can do whatever he wants that he can get the network to agree with- and for a lot of people that's a scary thought, given the things he's said. I don't think that Moore should bow to fanservice, but it is good to have some kind of dialogue going on between the people who watch the show and the people who make the show- if the show wants to continue with decent ratings.


I don't mind people complaining- why? Because this is livejournal, and complaining about people complaining on LJ is a bit silly.

Addendum:

[twister10.livejournal.com]

To clarify, now that I've read an above post about the nervous neurotic fan sydrome (which I think many of us have). To a certain extent, it's refreshing that Moore is open with the story, that it's not set in stone, and that he'll roll with the punches. In theory. However, looking at this season, the directions, the choices and the just plain stupid/contradictory things that have been said/done plotwise- I don't think it's working. I mean come on, just think of the ridiculousness of the cylon "plan", or Kara's missing (and plural) ovary, or pretty much the entire episode of Black Market. People complain about the podcasts because they see plotholes that the writers are apparently ignoring or fail to see- holes that could come back to bite them in the ass later.


I enjoyed Moore's Black Market podcast however, preciseley because it renewed a little bit of my faith in the guy- hey even he knew that it sucked!

Re: Addendum:

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

i guess the difference is that i don't see any "ridiculousness" in the cylon "plan" or what was done to Kara, nor, storytelling-wise, did i have any problems Black Market. my problems with the ep were in execution. they're trying to expand out and it was done clumsily, but the transition is difficult from something so tightly woven.

the beginning of this season was essentially the conclusion of the first, so the show is still finding its legs. i have no problem with that. even the best gardens have weeds.

Re: Addendum:

[twister10.livejournal.com]

The cylon plan isn't particularly clear but from what we know, here's what we get: Cylons want to exterminate mankind. Cylons also need mankind to reproduce.

Call me crazy, but completely nuking to hell all the inhabited planets and then setting up fertilization farms/camps on said nuked planets just doesn't sounds like a plan that makes sense. You've exposed all of your subjects to intense radiation. You've poisoned the environment in which you're trying to create life. Radiation meds or not, regular pregnancies are going to be in jeopardy in a post-Nuclear attack environment, nevermind experimental pregnancies that are at high-risk to begin with.

Plus, if you're goal was to get rid of mankind, but you're perfectly okay with interbreeding with the human species to create something new- then why bother to attack at all? The cylon models were perfectly integrated into human society, they could've just outbred them from within.

As for Kara, it's a science fiction staple for a female lead to have her reproductive system messed with. Sci-fi writers just love that uterus. What concerned me, aside from it being cliche and overdone, was that in his podcast Ron Moore made mention that Simon took "some of Kara's ovaries". I'm thinking maybe he meant eggs or just one of her ovaries, seeing as how most females only have two ovaries, but I've yet to see him correct it anywhere. Some people just find that a bit disconcerting. Hopefully, Scar will clear that up for us.

I think that the black market aspect of Black Market was pretty much the only thing the story had going for it as far as the story-telling goes- and that was executed poorly, possibly hurt by the Lee-centric nature of the episode. The entire Lee storyline was not just poorly executed, but poorly written. You just can't retcon big enormous things like that. Especially highly emotional things. That was just never going to work, no matter how it was executed.

I've commented on the first half of the season before. There's an inherent problem with a cliff-hanger stretched between two seasons- you've got to find the balance between resolving it too quickly and dragging it out for too long. It's a hard balance, and ultimately I think Galactica fell into the latter trap. The big problem was that they separated the main leads for too long- the only ones who remained together were Gaius and Six. It's great to do that for an episode here and there and focus and individual plot lines, but after 4 episodes it's just like "enough already", at that point the audience begins to loose interest in how it's resolved and just wants it to be resolved. I think a lot of people just write off the first 7 episodes of season 2 as "Season 1.5", but there's something very important that's being missed here: there's absolutely no reason why it should've been that way. This season got off on the wrong foot, and it's yet to find some stability.

Re: Addendum:

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

we're gonna have to agree to disagree. sorry.

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

Dude. I love you. I'd have your baby, except I'm perimenopausal and had my tubes tied 20 years ago. Besides, you're a woman, too.

Thank you for saying what I think every single damn time I see somebody whining about Ron's podcasts (and making himself vulnerable by showing the fans processes that he SHO' doesn't HAVE to share!). I can only be coherent when writing fic.

Thank you again.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

HA! :::giggles:::

you're very welcome.