as interesting as all that info is I guess I see a couple'a questions in it... one is, how does an illegal avoid paying taxes? they are illegal, therefore they either work in the cash economy where they don't exist to the government, or they have illegal identifications. In either case they wont bring attention to themselves. It is their employer who would capture the tax money. If the employer ISN'T doing so, that IS a felony, I think. Did anyone mention how many illegals file tax returns to get their taxes back? The number is close to zero getting a refund, again because of fear of detection. That money goes directly in the treasury, and at the wage bracket these people are in, they are prolly technically entitled to the whole refund... The ones who get their taxes taken out, likely more than make up for those who don't pay. So IMHO that argument is very hard to prove and disengenious, a least as much as the pols arguments for or against rights.
Nobody has bothered to mention how much sales tax these people pay, and so forth, but then that isnt the real question, anyway. The question that everyone seemingly ducks is: "why do they leave mexico?" 'mexico doesn't have the jobs or the money'
at what point is that our resposibility to fix? It would be better to spend money directly in mexico to help them stay home than to entice them here, but no-one is willing to say that. After all the arguments about "jobs americans won't do" is really about the inequity in markets that is required to support our standard of living. If there were no illegals, then the wage of the job would be required to rise until someone was willing to do it for that price. Things would be more expensive because of that, and the economy would re-align based on the expense of workforce. It would HURT, and that is why pols don't do ANYTHING decisive. They don't want anyone to think about the real value, we should just buy more. Naturally you couldn't buy a PC for $399 unless it was made in china, if it was made in the USA it would prolly be $2000+ All things being equal that sort of re-alignment would probably cause another depression, but at least it would be the true value of things.
So, it isn't economically in the USA's best interest to get the illegals to go home. It isn't economically in the USA's best interest for them to become citizens either, because then they would have legal legs to stand on. So I believe the status quo will continue, because exploiting the class without a voice, drives an economic engine at low price.
The whole guest worker thing? Ask a Turk about Germany's guest worker program. It's one step from illegal, and it's a lie. Ask someone from Mexico how much jail time you get for sneaking there illegally... AFAIK it ISN'T deportation, you have to serve time first.
Pragmatically, yeah, can't really send 'em home 12 million peeps, just too hard. Pragmatically it is also better to educate their children in hope that you will get a solid citizen out of the deal. I think the best realistic deal would be to change the immigration law so that in the future, anyone coming here illegally will get some jail time on the second offence, with the terms escalating, and then deportation. As you change the law, you should provide amnesty to those who are here, because the are here and would be counter productive to move... and then just think of it as a previous population boom.
I doube it would ever happen though. It isn't in TPTB best interest to make it legit, because of the economic cost. We had an amnesty in the 80's but it didn't stick, because they didn't put teeth in the laws. After that there was still no compelling reason NOT to come, and so it failed.
All I see is simplistic views on this tempest, and after the election year teacup is turned over, nothing will change... [cynical? me?]
So IMHO that argument is very hard to prove and disengenious, a least as much as the pols arguments for or against rights.
it's not disengenuous, and it's not hard to prove, but it certainly is not the whole story for all of the reasons you point out.
otoh, they came here, WILLINGLY, to this country to make money. how are we supposed to support them when they won't contribute? pull money out of our ass?
The question that everyone seemingly ducks is: "why do they leave mexico?" 'mexico doesn't have the jobs or the money'
i came from two sets of immigrant parents that went through Ellis Island with their families. my maternal grandfather had to come here almost 7 years prior to find a job, establish residency and save money. my sympathy factor to using that argument as an excuse is absolutely ZERO.
is it part of the whole complex problem? absolutely. would it help solve a lot of it? you bet. but last time i checked, we aren't Mexico and how exactly are we supposed to fix their economy?
there are separate issues here. one is that this country has completely frakked up the immigration process somehow, and people that want to come in are put through hell to do so. that isn't right. another is that the immigration from Mexico is a symptom, not the disease. that also isn't right. the other is that illegal immigrants are DEMANDING rights accorded to citizens. that ain't right either and if they want to live here because it's just so bitchin, part of that is being willing to abide by our laws, and legal immigration is one of them.
I suggest that it's disingenuous, because it is incidental to the issue. If they were not here, it wouldn't be a problem. If the were here legally it wouldn't be a problem. They are here illegally and that is the root cause...
as for my questions about why did they leave, I wasn't clear about how I regard the answers... but they'd be pretty much what you said... ;) The reason I phrased the questions that way is to get the spectre of racism OUT of it, because that ain't the issue. Even though many try to play that card. The general question I have for the marchers and so forth is "don't you love Mexico [or El Slavador, etc]?" 'Yes, it is my country...' "Then why don't you stay to fix it?"
I'm not terribly charitable either, just because I know immigrants who did it the hard way, and I also have friends that had H1's that got laid off, and it derailed their lives, because there was nothing for them in europe to go back to... I'm a mutt, not knowing my blood relations, but by mom's adotption and my step father, the heath's and dameron's have been here since the early 1700's and the Hagberry's through Ellis in the 1890's [I think]...
What is getting my ire up about all this is that nothing pragmatic is really being suggested. It's the same old polarizing for/against. Because real political change isn't actually a goal... for anyone in office.
I suggest that it's disingenuous, because it is incidental to the issue. If they were not here, it wouldn't be a problem. If the were here legally it wouldn't be a problem. They are here illegally and that is the root cause...
i would agree if the article were discussing why they were coming here rather than discussing the impact of them being here. different focus.
The reason I phrased the questions that way is to get the spectre of racism OUT of it, because that ain't the issue
i don't know anyone other than racists that are arguing it is. it's not. and what lots of people keep forgetting is that it's not JUST about mexican immigration. they aren't even the majority of illegal immigrants.
What is getting my ire up about all this is that nothing pragmatic is really being suggested. It's the same old polarizing for/against. Because real political change isn't actually a goal... for anyone in office.
well sure, because the issues are being "played" by all of the special interests and again, EVERYONE involved keeps either forgetting or pretending to, that it's not just about Mexico. the problem is larger and the fix is complicated.
an aweful lot of what I've read indicates that mexico is the lion's share... supposedly independent think... that is based on census data, so I would guess that any illegals in the sample are undercounted. It may be simplistic, but if overall immigration is that lopsided, I'd have to believe that illegal is too... :shrug: data are spotty...
Did anyone mention how many illegals file tax returns to get their taxes back? The number is close to zero getting a refund, again because of fear of detection. That money goes directly in the treasury, and at the wage bracket these people are in, they are prolly technically entitled to the whole refund... The ones who get their taxes taken out, likely more than make up for those who don't pay.
Well, those who use stolen social security numbers to get jobs illegally by passing themselves as being okay to work can end up costing the individuals that actually retain those SS numbers thousands of dollars in additional taxes because the IRS thinks that those individuals aren't reporting their full income.
The question that everyone seemingly ducks is: "why do they leave mexico?" 'mexico doesn't have the jobs or the money'
Yeah, but if they stayed, and if Mexico wasn't allowed the pressure release of sending people here for jobs, they'd actually have to fix or change what's going on in Mexico. Additionally, Mexico has the money. All the people coming here keep sending money back to Mexico to sustain the family members they have back home. This works for the government of Mexico, because the US is funding them, indirectly.
Pragmatically it is also better to educate their children in hope that you will get a solid citizen out of the deal.
One would hope that their children are being educated, but, I can tell you that considering how many of these immigrant families are being housed under one roof and how many children each of these families have, there's not enough money coming from property taxes in order to educate all these children.
I think the best realistic deal would be to change the immigration law so that in the future, anyone coming here illegally will get some jail time on the second offence, with the terms escalating, and then deportation. As you change the law, you should provide amnesty to those who are here, because the are here and would be counter productive to move... and then just think of it as a previous population boom.
Well, one of the reasons that these people are so outraged is because they don't want the Sensenbrenner (sp?) amendment to one of the bills to go through, which would reclassify illegal aliens as committing a felony rather than a misdemeanor. and there's no way to make sure that the rules are enforced, because as it is, many cities have sanctuary laws and don't allow their officers to ask the immigration status of the individual they're arresting.
My very mean and personal opinion is that those who are currently here illegally should be given the option of staying here legally by joining either a temporary worker program or a resident alien program for those here longer than 5 years. Also, everybody should have the period of 1 year to register. But, they should also be punished by never having the ability of becoming US citizens, and having only the ability of staying as resident aliens (having green cards) because they didn't come here legally - unless they leave and go through the process of legally trying to get in through the immigration process of becoming a citizen. If they really want to stay, they have a way of doing so. Their children could become citizens if they immigrated properly or if they were born here, but because of the illegal manner of their parents' entrance, their disregard for the laws and the people of this country, their parents should have consequences. Anyways, they came here not expecting to have any say in the law, so they should get their wish. Beyond that, i think that the sensenbrenner amendment should go through, because they have no reason not to register and the punishments for companies that hire them should be stiff. And, the wall needs to go up on the border.
and yes, i know i'm totally irrational about this..
and yes, i know i'm totally irrational about this. You? coughbullshitcough... it's a hard question, and till people dig deep, they's never going to come up with an answer...
it's a hard question, and till people dig deep, they's never going to come up with an answer...
true, that.
i guess what frustrates me the most with the they-can-stay proposals is why, given they're illegal in the first place, should we expect them to then follow our laws when, you know, they didn't in the first place?
i know what you mean... they didn't have any respect for the law before. by giving in to their behavior, how do we expect them to follow our laws in the future.
btw, did you hear about a group suing the LAPD to get them to stop enforcing special order 40?
i'd agree with everything except the wall. it's not going to stop anything and i don't like the precedent. we should be able to solve this some other way. brick and mortar strikes me as very childish.
well, putting up steel walls has worked to drop the level of illegal crossings through the San Diego area borders down 95%, so it is one deterrant that has and is working, even though it might be childish.
never said i didn't like it because it wouldn't work. i'm sure they'll work brilliantly. it's the message they send that have a problem with. we can solve our immigration problem, work with the other countries to solve our immigration problem, so we build a really high wall blocking us in? that's mature.
meant to add, but hit post too fast: either our borders are open or they aren't. you can't have open borders with giant walls....unless of course you're trying to immitate someone like, i dunno, East Germany?
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sforzinda
no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 04:12 am (UTC)Nobody has bothered to mention how much sales tax these people pay, and so forth, but then that isnt the real question, anyway. The question that everyone seemingly ducks is: "why do they leave mexico?" 'mexico doesn't have the jobs or the money'
at what point is that our resposibility to fix? It would be better to spend money directly in mexico to help them stay home than to entice them here, but no-one is willing to say that. After all the arguments about "jobs americans won't do" is really about the inequity in markets that is required to support our standard of living. If there were no illegals, then the wage of the job would be required to rise until someone was willing to do it for that price. Things would be more expensive because of that, and the economy would re-align based on the expense of workforce. It would HURT, and that is why pols don't do ANYTHING decisive. They don't want anyone to think about the real value, we should just buy more. Naturally you couldn't buy a PC for $399 unless it was made in china, if it was made in the USA it would prolly be $2000+ All things being equal that sort of re-alignment would probably cause another depression, but at least it would be the true value of things.
So, it isn't economically in the USA's best interest to get the illegals to go home. It isn't economically in the USA's best interest for them to become citizens either, because then they would have legal legs to stand on. So I believe the status quo will continue, because exploiting the class without a voice, drives an economic engine at low price.
The whole guest worker thing? Ask a Turk about Germany's guest worker program. It's one step from illegal, and it's a lie. Ask someone from Mexico how much jail time you get for sneaking there illegally... AFAIK it ISN'T deportation, you have to serve time first.
Pragmatically, yeah, can't really send 'em home 12 million peeps, just too hard. Pragmatically it is also better to educate their children in hope that you will get a solid citizen out of the deal. I think the best realistic deal would be to change the immigration law so that in the future, anyone coming here illegally will get some jail time on the second offence, with the terms escalating, and then deportation. As you change the law, you should provide amnesty to those who are here, because the are here and would be counter productive to move... and then just think of it as a previous population boom.
I doube it would ever happen though. It isn't in TPTB best interest to make it legit, because of the economic cost. We had an amnesty in the 80's but it didn't stick, because they didn't put teeth in the laws. After that there was still no compelling reason NOT to come, and so it failed.
All I see is simplistic views on this tempest, and after the election year teacup is turned over, nothing will change... [cynical? me?]
no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 05:00 am (UTC)it's not disengenuous, and it's not hard to prove, but it certainly is not the whole story for all of the reasons you point out.
otoh, they came here, WILLINGLY, to this country to make money. how are we supposed to support them when they won't contribute? pull money out of our ass?
The question that everyone seemingly ducks is: "why do they leave mexico?" 'mexico doesn't have the jobs or the money'
i came from two sets of immigrant parents that went through Ellis Island with their families. my maternal grandfather had to come here almost 7 years prior to find a job, establish residency and save money. my sympathy factor to using that argument as an excuse is absolutely ZERO.
is it part of the whole complex problem? absolutely. would it help solve a lot of it? you bet. but last time i checked, we aren't Mexico and how exactly are we supposed to fix their economy?
there are separate issues here. one is that this country has completely frakked up the immigration process somehow, and people that want to come in are put through hell to do so. that isn't right. another is that the immigration from Mexico is a symptom, not the disease. that also isn't right. the other is that illegal immigrants are DEMANDING rights accorded to citizens. that ain't right either and if they want to live here because it's just so bitchin, part of that is being willing to abide by our laws, and legal immigration is one of them.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 05:40 am (UTC)as for my questions about why did they leave, I wasn't clear about how I regard the answers... but they'd be pretty much what you said... ;) The reason I phrased the questions that way is to get the spectre of racism OUT of it, because that ain't the issue. Even though many try to play that card. The general question I have for the marchers and so forth is "don't you love Mexico [or El Slavador, etc]?" 'Yes, it is my country...' "Then why don't you stay to fix it?"
I'm not terribly charitable either, just because I know immigrants who did it the hard way, and I also have friends that had H1's that got laid off, and it derailed their lives, because there was nothing for them in europe to go back to... I'm a mutt, not knowing my blood relations, but by mom's adotption and my step father, the heath's and dameron's have been here since the early 1700's and the Hagberry's through Ellis in the 1890's [I think]...
What is getting my ire up about all this is that nothing pragmatic is really being suggested. It's the same old polarizing for/against. Because real political change isn't actually a goal... for anyone in office.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 05:46 am (UTC)i would agree if the article were discussing why they were coming here rather than discussing the impact of them being here. different focus.
The reason I phrased the questions that way is to get the spectre of racism OUT of it, because that ain't the issue
i don't know anyone other than racists that are arguing it is. it's not. and what lots of people keep forgetting is that it's not JUST about mexican immigration. they aren't even the majority of illegal immigrants.
What is getting my ire up about all this is that nothing pragmatic is really being suggested. It's the same old polarizing for/against. Because real political change isn't actually a goal... for anyone in office.
well sure, because the issues are being "played" by all of the special interests and again, EVERYONE involved keeps either forgetting or pretending to, that it's not just about Mexico. the problem is larger and the fix is complicated.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 06:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 06:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 06:08 am (UTC)Well, those who use stolen social security numbers to get jobs illegally by passing themselves as being okay to work can end up costing the individuals that actually retain those SS numbers thousands of dollars in additional taxes because the IRS thinks that those individuals aren't reporting their full income.
The question that everyone seemingly ducks is: "why do they leave mexico?" 'mexico doesn't have the jobs or the money'
Yeah, but if they stayed, and if Mexico wasn't allowed the pressure release of sending people here for jobs, they'd actually have to fix or change what's going on in Mexico. Additionally, Mexico has the money. All the people coming here keep sending money back to Mexico to sustain the family members they have back home. This works for the government of Mexico, because the US is funding them, indirectly.
Pragmatically it is also better to educate their children in hope that you will get a solid citizen out of the deal.
One would hope that their children are being educated, but, I can tell you that considering how many of these immigrant families are being housed under one roof and how many children each of these families have, there's not enough money coming from property taxes in order to educate all these children.
I think the best realistic deal would be to change the immigration law so that in the future, anyone coming here illegally will get some jail time on the second offence, with the terms escalating, and then deportation. As you change the law, you should provide amnesty to those who are here, because the are here and would be counter productive to move... and then just think of it as a previous population boom.
Well, one of the reasons that these people are so outraged is because they don't want the Sensenbrenner (sp?) amendment to one of the bills to go through, which would reclassify illegal aliens as committing a felony rather than a misdemeanor. and there's no way to make sure that the rules are enforced, because as it is, many cities have sanctuary laws and don't allow their officers to ask the immigration status of the individual they're arresting.
My very mean and personal opinion is that those who are currently here illegally should be given the option of staying here legally by joining either a temporary worker program or a resident alien program for those here longer than 5 years. Also, everybody should have the period of 1 year to register. But, they should also be punished by never having the ability of becoming US citizens, and having only the ability of staying as resident aliens (having green cards) because they didn't come here legally - unless they leave and go through the process of legally trying to get in through the immigration process of becoming a citizen. If they really want to stay, they have a way of doing so. Their children could become citizens if they immigrated properly or if they were born here, but because of the illegal manner of their parents' entrance, their disregard for the laws and the people of this country, their parents should have consequences. Anyways, they came here not expecting to have any say in the law, so they should get their wish. Beyond that, i think that the sensenbrenner amendment should go through, because they have no reason not to register and the punishments for companies that hire them should be stiff. And, the wall needs to go up on the border.
and yes, i know i'm totally irrational about this..
no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 06:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 06:52 am (UTC)true, that.
i guess what frustrates me the most with the they-can-stay proposals is why, given they're illegal in the first place, should we expect them to then follow our laws when, you know, they didn't in the first place?
no subject
Date: 2006-05-03 09:13 am (UTC)btw, did you hear about a group suing the LAPD to get them to stop enforcing special order 40?
no subject
Date: 2006-05-03 07:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-02 06:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-03 09:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-03 07:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-03 08:00 pm (UTC)