BSG- Resistance

[somedaybitch]

elsewhere, there was a discussion about Lee's behavior. thevaliumsofa said:

it would be easier, in the long run, for it to be military vs. civilian and not military vs military. the relationships would be easier to fix later on

to which i agreed, and replied the following. cuz i'm lazy, i thought i'd just cut/paste my comments here.

only, without the quote-y stuff.

so, uhm, here...

********

yes, this. Lee's not going to do damage on his father's ship. he doesn't want the crew to have to choose. he doesn't want officer against officer. and he recognized that getting the President somewhere else, somewhere to try and do what she feels she needs to in order to save humanity, will keep Galactica's crew from having to choose.

Lee wasn't comfortable with what was happening, with the crew's support of him. look at his reaction to the pilots in the briefing. he knew it was fracturing the crew. he had to take himself out of the equation, take the President out of the equation or Galactica would be fucked.



and because i'm a complete sloth, i think i'll just go round up my commments elsewhere and bring 'em here.

********

Baltar wasn't talking to Sharon, he was talking to the cylon. he was asking the cylon if the cylon loved the Chief, if the cylon was willing to save the Chief's life. because if the cylon part of her is capable of love, then so is the Six in his head.

Baltar was utterly awesome in this...and so was Six. she's losing him, she knows it, and it matters because she is becoming more human....she is really in love with him.

i think the cylons chose poorly in Baltar...underestimated him, not realizing that when he was truly tested, he'd choose the right path.

i also loved Zarek in this ep. i don't think he's gonna be a bad guy. Apollo gave Zarek another chance because part of Zarek was right, he just went about it the wrong way. that makes Zarek an interesting question. look at how angry he was at Tigh last week when Tigh disrespected the office of the President. it wasn't Roslin that Zarek was torqued about, it was the office being snubbed. can Zarek, when given the opportunity, do the right thing?

can Baltar, when pushed, do the right thing?

or Tigh for that matter. when sober, he makes the right choices, but he second-guesses himself so much, feels he is so weak, that he hides behind the booze. he could have had the raptor shot down but he didn't. he couldn't, because he knew it was wrong.

and my personal prediction for C!Boomer, based on no spoilers whatsoever...she boosted the raider to go get a transport. she's gonna get them off Caprica.

*******

and from bsg_creative:

adafrog said:

YAY!! But what's with the being all friendly and nice to Tigh? Maybe because he hasn't quite figured out what happened.
And does the comment that he doesn't take well to people second guessing his decisions mean that he is going to really not ever forgive Junior? I mean, he *has* to at some point, doesn't he? Although Lee did keep his grudge for two years....

i think he was addressing that comment to Tigh, who only fraks up when he second guesses himself, which is usually when the Devil Ellen is whispering in his ear.

Although, now with the old man, I'll bet Lee loses whatever pull he had with a good majority of the military people. Unless he's weird now, too. *scrunches face*

Lee left because of the pull, because of the support he was getting from the crew. he didn't want to be the reason the crew fractured, and he also believes his decision to back the President was right, thus, given what was happening in the fleet, they both knew she had to get off the ship. they both did.

i think if Lee knew his dad was gonnna wake up, he wouldn't have left though. but he didn't, so he did what he thought was right.

and Tigh did some stuff right in this episode. he didn't go apeshit in Sickbay when Hammerhead was trying to explain what happened. Tigh was finally facing the results of his actions. people were getting killed. Tigh didn't order HotDog to shoot Apollo's raptor either. and Tigh was starting to recognize, when he was sober, that Ellen was manipulating him in the worst possible way.

*********

have more thoughts, but these'll do for now. talk amongst yourselves.


real quick...more thoughts.

Cally: OHMIFRAKKINGGOD!

Gaeta: don't think he's a cylon. i think he was just covering for Dee.

Cottle: i got so.much.love.


Lee saying goodbye to Adama: ouch, like an ouch thing.

Jammer: somebody space him please? anyone?

Tyrol: duuuuuuuuude.

also? why with the nutting up about a team of athletes surviving? they train together in real life. happens all the time. i ran into the US Olympic Ski Team one summer in Mammoth when i went mountain biking. they were, wait for it, high.altitude.training.

and shooting a gun? not terribly complicated. point. shoot.

professional athletes have superb reflexes, superb hand-eye coordination. that's all you need to shoot a gun effectively. that's it.

first time i went shooting i blew the head out of the paper target at 10 yards. fully automatic weapons take about 5 minutes to get used to. the mini's that Kara and Helo had looked like Tech9's.(sic) they fire 9mm rounds. there's almost no kick. the recoil from a fully auto is simply a matter of adjusting your grip and your stancce. that's it. the guy with the sniper rifle? also not complicated. big scope, looked like a fully open eye reticle style, [both eyes open to sight], not so tough with the missing your target.

Comments

[thevaliumsofalj.livejournal.com]

Lee wasn't comfortable with what was happening, with the crew's support of him. look at his reaction to the pilots in the briefing

Head! following that when Dee said, "I wish... I wish you were in command, sir." it was like, at least to me, she was voicing what nobody else was saying directly.

Let's face it - when it comes to the military, these people have to trust each other, they are the ones that go through the door, that cover each other's sixes, they become a family to each other. If you tear them apart, and they lose that trust, that damage can be irreparable, and in the long run, that damage will put the fleet in danger.

but the relationship of the military and the civilians? that will be easier to repair once the civil government is back in place and the military and civil government walk in lock step with each other. It's just a matter of time because they both need the other.

and I forgot to add

[thevaliumsofalj.livejournal.com]

i think if Lee knew his dad was gonnna wake up, he wouldn't have left though. but he didn't, so he did what he thought was right.

totally agree. had he known that his father was going to wake up, he would have stayed and worked hard to put everything in order, because his father would have taken command, and would mitigate the damage that tigh has wreaked.

Re: and I forgot to add

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I think Lee had faith that his father was going to wake up and come back to duty, but when? Lee seemed willing to wait until civilians started dying. The situation was going from bad to worse in his mind and I don't see given his previous actions that he had any other choice but the one he took. I agree, the best hope to clean up this mess is get Laura back amongst the civilian fleet and, now with Adama up and about, perhaps get them talking to mend the situation.

Lee wasn't comfortable with what was happening, with the crew's support of him. look at his reaction to the pilots in the briefing. he knew it was fracturing the crew. he had to take himself out of the equation, take the President out of the equation or Galactica would be fucked.

I'm almost wondering, given how in sync Lee and Laura are again, that he now understands the choice she made to surrender in KLG Pt2. There is no question in my mind, Lee could rally the support to commendeer the Galactica (hell, Dee who was berating Billy for the mutiny a couple days ago now wants Lee in command), but it wouldn't be without bloodshed - which was exactly what Laura was trying to avoid on Colonial One. Lee knows exactly what he's doing and my feeling is that for the first time he's very much at peace with himself and his choices.

And I've never felt for a second that Caprica Boomer has abandoned Helo and Kara. We've seen how unwavering Galactica Boomer's love was for Tyrol, why would CB's feelings for Helo be any different?

Re: and I forgot to add

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Lee knows exactly what he's doing and my feeling is that for the first time he's very much at peace with himself and his choices.

yes, that's my impression as well.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Let's face it - when it comes to the military, these people have to trust each other, they are the ones that go through the door, that cover each other's sixes, they become a family to each other. If you tear them apart, and they lose that trust, that damage can be irreparable, and in the long run, that damage will put the fleet in danger.

yes. absolutely. again going back to Apollo's reaction in the briefing. how frakked would it be if the pilots started to question and found themselves in the position of having to choose, under combat, between Tigh and Apollo. that.can't.happen. and Lee knew that. if his father were conscious, or if Tigh was doing okay, then it wouldn't have mattered if Apollo was in the brig on his downtime because there wouldn't be a conflict in the chain of command.

[adafrog.livejournal.com]

You know, I had really been thinking of it as a highly interesting story line. Since I haven't been in a similar situation, it isn't as clear or obvious to me how it would fracture the crew of the Galactica (I know about the pilots, but in general, I didn't see the bigger implications. and I wanted him to take over the Galactica from Tigh, but thinking about it now, Papadama would really have not taken to that well).

I see what you're saying, and I'll bet it would be true (although I think not so much once Papadama awoke), but I'm still having trouble imagining it from my frame of reference. In medicine, disagreements are common, and often encouraged (or, at least discussions); in dressage, yah, it would suck if the horse followed the trainer instead, but it still doesn't feel real to me. Does that make sense?

Oh, BTW, ITA about the sports team.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

but I'm still having trouble imagining it from my frame of reference. In medicine, disagreements are common, and often encouraged (or, at least discussions)

a good officer recognizes that his people know what they are doing and listens to their input, *especially* if it is different than his own perception. but that isn't what i'm talking about here. this would be like the ep where Michael secretly poisoned Operations to draw the head of Red Cell out, but nobody else knew it. so when Ops started acting like a wackjob, the operatives are like, "wtf?". they *instinctively* seek guidance and a rational mind. those kinds of worlds will rip themselves apart without it. Nikita and Co instinctively started talking about what to do with Ops because he was losing control of Section and too much was at stake. at the showdown scene, you've got operatives that are blindly following Ops and Maddy squared off against the *thinking* operatives that realize the larger ramifications and are behind Michael, and by extension, Nikita.

no different here. the pilots were starting to defer to Apollo. soldiers intrinsically seek a structure and a leader because that's what they've been trained to do. when that falls into question, when there is no *clear* guy in charge, you've got bigger problems than the cylons.

[adafrog.livejournal.com]

Ah so. That helps me.

[spudzilla.livejournal.com]

Hope it's okay that I'm commenting here.

and my personal prediction for C!Boomer, based on no spoilers whatsoever...she boosted the raider to go get a transport. she's gonna get them off Caprica.

I think you're absolutely right here. My take on it? I think the cylons have underestimated the complications of having pregnant cylons in their midst. They don't understand maternal instinct. She's defected because of her love of Helo, true, but she also is going to want to take whatever means necessary to protect her child. She can't go back to the cylons now - her best chance of her survival, and therefore her child's is to stay with Helo, who has already demonstrated that he will not allow his child to be killed. And I believe that she lifted Starbuck's raider because she perceived danger from Starbuck, and needed to make it so Starbuck and Helo had to depend on her to get off Caprica...thus ensuring her and her child's survival. Does that makes sense?

and Tigh did some stuff right in this episode. he didn't go apeshit in Sickbay when Hammerhead was trying to explain what happened. Tigh was finally facing the results of his actions. people were getting killed. Tigh didn't order HotDog to shoot Apollo's raptor either. and Tigh was starting to recognize, when he was sober, that Ellen was manipulating him in the worst possible way.

They are doing such a great job of maintaining a balance in our (the viewers) feelings towards Tigh. One moment we hate him, but then he goes and does something like this that makes you respect him, and even care for him as a character. God, this show is good.

Again, I hope it's okay that I commented here. I just think you have such interesting insights on this show, even though we don't always agree.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Again, I hope it's okay that I commented here. I just think you have such interesting insights on this show, even though we don't always agree.

absolutely it's okay. and thanks re the insights. i don't see television or film any different than a book, in the storytelling aspects. it's not my story. if i want the characters to go a certain way, then i'll try to write that myself. what i'm interested in is what they are telling. if i like it, i keep watching. so in that respect, i also try really hard not to get too spoiled either. i don't want expectations of story. i want to take it fresh as it comes. just like i would in a book.


that said, i totally agree with your additional thoughts about Boomer. at that moment in time, Starbuck was a threat to Boomer, and thus the child.


One moment we hate him, but then he goes and does something like this that makes you respect him, and even care for him as a character.

exactly. and i think it's because we can relate to that. who hasn't made an utterly boneheaded decision and then realized it? who hasn't been utterly overwhelmed and tried to not drown? the man is, at his core, a good man, and when sober, a good officer. his weakness, not unlike Starbuck's, is his own personal demons.

[spoonishly.livejournal.com]

Baltar wasn't talking to Sharon, he was talking to the cylon. he was asking the cylon if the cylon loved the Chief, if the cylon was willing to save the Chief's life. because if the cylon part of her is capable of love, then so is the Six in his head.

Dude, I didn't even get near that thought. I just thought it was Baltar doing his thing for the Cylons but that makes more sense and proves an interesting plot point.

Since him time on Kobol, Baltar looks a lot less twitchy and he's not nearly as nervous when Six pops up to tell him what to do. Nice call.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

thanks, eh. it was his dialogue with Tyrol that cinched it....about how love, even with a machine, was love and to be grateful for it...or however that dialogue actually went.

it goes back to my belief that they underestimated him because he hadn't been truly tested yet. Baltar has *always* protected the innocent. first with G!Boomer in that utterly fabulous scene in officer country. he knows what it's like to have a cylon in his head. he knows what it's like to be manipulated. he had so much compassion for her. he was glad, or maybe proud, when he heard the gunshot go off.

then he did it again for Cally.

then he did it *again* for Crashdown.

none of those got him anything. when push comes to shove he won't knowingly betray his people, and he won't knowingly stand by and watch the innocent be victimized. that's why Six is starting to panic. she knows she's underestimated him. she knows that he's seeing through her manipulations and recognizing her agenda in them, how she's skewing events that would have happened on their own to serve her needs.

Baltar's on his own side now.

also, i think being able to truly believe that Six could actually love him will free him more, and help him understand her better. people do wacky stuff for love.

themonkeycabal and i had our weekly post-ep porch chat about it, and we're sad that so many don't like Baltar, or the Baltar/Six storyline, and/or the Helo/Caprica storylines. they are missing so much subtlety, so much character and motivation. Helo is a parallel to Tyrol, Boomer a parallel to Boomer. Helo's scenes with Starbuck are insight into Starbuck, and the kind of man that Helo is, the kind of friend. Starbuck felt utterly safe with Helo in her apartment. she talked and he just listened. didn't judge. takes her completely as she is. and Baltar, Helo and Tyrol are the questions of humanity, the questions of love, acceptance, and the complicated nature of what it means to be human, what it means to live with the flaws.

look at Helo and Boomer. she's pregnant with his child. i think the child that Six keeps referring to is Boomer's. Helo will protect the child because the child is his, Boomer will protect the child because the child is hers, but Baltar will protect the child because the child is innocent. and i think he will do so as fiercely as either of the child's parents.

Six believes that she has converted Baltar and that he will protect the child from the sinners. but Baltar is on to her game now, he is starting to see the cylons for the part of them that Six is trying so very hard to hide, or justify. Baltar won't let them use that child for their own means. but maybe, if Six really is capable of love, Baltar can use that love, or rather, appeal to that love.

[simplystars.livejournal.com]

*blinks*

dude.

just... dude.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

what? does that sound high?

[simplystars.livejournal.com]

*snicker* high? nah... it sounds too. damn. smart. :D

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

shuffles feet. oh. uhm, thanks.

[boofadil.livejournal.com]

I honestly think that if I were to have to pick a "favorite" storyline, it'd be the Baltar/Six storyline, but since I don't have to, and since they all touch each other and each of their threads speaks to what's going on in another thread by paralleling it or slamming headlong into it...

I just love this show. And the sports team? Made sense to me. I had some issue with just how talented Kara is, but whatever. She whined when Helo told her to go first and that makes up for everything. *g*

Plus it helps that I know a few multi-talented people that you wouldn't believe existed, except for that they do.

[cofax7]

Plus it helps that I know a few multi-talented people that you wouldn't believe existed, except for that they do.

Yup. ::points at serenada and stormrunner, both of whom seem like they can't possibly be real, until you meet them, and they are.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

and honestly, is that such an odd occurrence? really?

[boofadil.livejournal.com]

I was thinking Max when I thought online world...

[boofadil.livejournal.com]

look at Helo and Boomer. she's pregnant with his child. i think the child that Six keeps referring to is Boomer's. Helo will protect the child because the child is his, Boomer will protect the child because the child is hers, but Baltar will protect the child because the child is innocent. and i think he will do so as fiercely as either of the child's parents.

Gack. Yes. and Ow.

That's about as intelligent as I'll get on that right now.

[eve11]

I thought the professsional sports team surviving was a fantastic idea. And, was it me, or was that the hottest game of Pyramid ever played? *fans self* I second your statements on automatic weapons too, and add that in my experience the medium-sized ones are easier than the little ones to deal with because they're more stable. Takes more time learning to fix it if it jams, and how to disassemble and clean it.

I loved the scene with Baltar and the Cylon! And I like the way you've described it above too. Actually, with the human cylons there are a lot of parallels to Blade Runner and the idea of what it is to be human. In the beginning I wasn't sure why they lingered on the single drop of blood from Tyrol -- thought it was a strange choice -- but then they came back to it in the end with Boomer. wow. And Baltar -- I'm loving his character.

[simplystars.livejournal.com]

i love the way they took something sort of hokey from the original series (which had all my preteen adoration, so it's not bashing at all) and twisted it into something gritty and real, a survival advantage. of all the people to live through the invasion, hell, to THRIVE after, and spill some blood of vengeance... anyway, i thought it was clever. *shrug*

[eve11]

Heh, I didn't realize they were an update on the original series. I never saw the original, except maybe for a scene or two when I said, "Hey! It's Face from the A-team!" But that was it...

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

they did...and actually accidentally screwed it up in the mini-series. "Pyramid" is the card game and "Triad" is the sport. Ron mentioned it in one of the podcasts, he was all, "uhm, whoops?". it made me giggle.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

me too. on both thoughts.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

duuuude. that game was SO hot like a hot thing. *whew*

[boofadil.livejournal.com]

so. very. hot.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

and maybe it's just me, but Anders looks NOTHING like Apollo, and Michael Trucco looks nothing like Jaime. i mean, other than they're both hot males with square jawlines.

[thevaliumsofalj.livejournal.com]

I dunno why I see a slight resemblence there... at just the right angle *big grin*

[(Anonymous)]

I enjoyed the historical references in this episode. You got your King George (tigh) you got your Intolerable Acts and Boston Massacre. You got your Moses character, someone's a Benedict Arnold, but I don't think it's Baltar; maybe Billy or Gaeta, or hell, maybe D. Separate bands of militias forming up, Starbuck and Helo with the Rebels, just like the American Revolution and the French Revolution. Ellen Tigh as Cardinal Richelieu, (and we all know what happened to him.)I'm sure there are more, but I can't think right now. I don't know what Lee is yet.

Jack Ruby anybody?
and speaking of Cally: it's interesting that she is becoming the "I'll be your conscious", the polar opposite of Six. She affected Baltar more than Six ever did. Everyone needs a little Disney in their lives so now you've got a hay-maker swingin', gun totin', hella good shot Jimminy Crickett on board. Nobody messes with little sister!

Was it just me, or did the scene with GBoomer dying in Tyrol's arms remind you of Jesus? Tyrol was the roman soldier who poked jesus in the side as well as mary magdaline holding jesus after they took him down? Tyrol touched her wound, so I was wondering about that.

Either way it was a VERY engaging episode.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

yeah, i'm thinkin' the Jesus imagery, well all the imagery actually, was just you. and speaking of you, uhm, who is this?

[pualaridesagain.livejournal.com]

...and sorry, the anon post was by me, I hit the wrong button.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

heh. no worries. had me puzzlin' there for a minute.

i still think it was just you, though. ;)

[pualaridesagain.livejournal.com]

nah, it's story telling genius. Besides, all this has happened before, all this will happen again. Just in BSG's case, they stuck it in a blender.

ayup.